vraagje over de KT varianten

Hilbert Zuijdendorp

Lid van de TWENOT
Ik had het er met Jurrie over, en de vraag kwam naar boven..

Waarom zijn er 3 bekende namen namelijk

Krupp
Henschel
Porsche

Die verschillende tanks ontworpen te hebben, maar de vraag is nu:

Waarom ken ik alleen de porsche en de henschel variant. Wie heeft wat gebouwd of ontworpen??
Ik ken twee tanks, maar er zijn 3 bedrijven betrokken geweest.
Kan iemand mij uitleggen hoe dat nou precies zat??

Zijn er dan ook 3 verschillende varianten geweest??

Hilbert
 
Ben nu dit tegen gekomen:

http://www.achtungpanzer.com/pz5.htm
The first 50 King Tigers (including the three prototypes) were equipped with turrets designed by Krupp for Porsche's VK4502(P) - commonly known as Porsche Turrets. Later models were equipped with turrets designed by Krupp for Henschel - known as Henschel or Krupp Production Turrets.

Hmz 😉. Zit het waarschijnlijk toch nog net iets anders in elkaar 🙂

Jurrie
 
Waarom zijn er 3 bekende namen namelijk
Krupp
Henschel
Porsche

De derde bestaat niet, de Krupp versie had een Porsche design toren (ontworpen voor op een 911 😱 )

De "bekende" Porsche versie (de 1e batch van 50 tanks)
is dus beter gezegd de Krupp versie............

Snappiem nog........... 😉 😈

Mzzl,
Dan
 
Klopt, er is geen "Porche" koepel. Dat is weer zo iets dat ergens vandaan is gekomen en vervolgens blijft hangen. Inmiddels hebben de experts het geloof ik over een vroege koepel en een productie koepel. Maar het zal nog wel even duren voor de benaming "Porche" verdwenen is. Zoiets blijft wel hangen
 
Niels zei: Klopt, er is geen "Porche" koepel. Dat is weer zo iets dat ergens vandaan is gekomen en vervolgens blijft hangen. Inmiddels hebben de experts het geloof ik over een vroege koepel en een productie koepel. Maar het zal nog wel even duren voor de benaming "Porche" verdwenen is. Zoiets blijft wel hangen

Mwoh, ik denk dat de naam van de koepel niet zozeer te maken had met wie hem ontwierp, maar meer met wie het voertuig ontwierp/bouwen zou waar de toren op zou komen.
Dus Porsche toren, ook al heeft Krupp hem ontworpen, bekt iets makkelijker dan Krupp toren voor het door Porsche ontworpen voorstel van de Tiger II...
 
om toch nog even terug te komen op de koepels, op ML staat de volgende post die het volgens mij helemaal uitlegt en ook laat zien dat de "Porsche" koepel helemaal niet specifiek voor de Porsche tiger2 ontworpen is:
so how come we did end up calling them "porsche" and "Henshel" turrets ?
is it because the VK 4502(P) used this first turret ?


Herbert Ackermans:
Blame Spielberger. Amongst others, he used the term "Porsche Turm" and also "ProduktionsTurm" in his Tiger und seine Abarten.

He also put the Schmalturm on the Panther II in Panther und seine Abarten.

Although his books are regarded as "must have" literature, those books have led in these cases to some stubborn incorrect names.

The turret some call "Porsche turret" was the original design for the VK-4502. During the development of this vehicle both Porsche and Henschel designed a chassis for this turret. Porsche had his 2 types, Typ 180 with either the turret at the rear or at the front. The hull was basically an upgraded Porsche VK 4501/Elefant hull with sloping armour. The layout was virtually the same and the running gear as well.

Since Porsche wanted to use the electro-drive which already had proven unsuccesfull in the VK-4501 offer, his design was rejected. Henschel got the contract for the VK-4502 chassis.

At that time, to add some more confusion, Henschel had decided NOT to build the Tiger-2, but instead make a re-design and start work on the VK-4503, or Tiger-3. The old Tiger-2 design was a Tiger-E with sloping armour.

Influence from the desire to share components with the later aborted Panther-II led to delays in the VK-4503 development.

And all this time, Krupp designed the turret and Wegman built them.

Once the Tiger-B was put into production, soon problems with the turret arose. The rounded front posed a dangerous shottrap, also the bulge for the cupola made the turret complicated and the curved armourpiece was not an easy thing to make as well.

Hence, Krupp re-designed the turret to incorporate straighter angels. This is the turret that is referred to as "Henschel" turret.

Porsche never ever built any tanks. NEVER. Al he did was design proposals from which all but 1 got rejected. His masterpiece, the Maus, was put into production. And we all know how succesfull that was.

hele topic kan je hier vinden:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/47207/thread/1150677532/King+Tiger+-+Ardennes+Offensive
 
Ik heb het ook gelezen, maar:

"The first 50 King Tigers (including the three prototypes) were equipped with turrets designed by Krupp for Porsche's VK4502(P) - commonly known as Porsche Turrets. Later models were equipped with turrets designed by Krupp for Henschel - known as Henschel or Krupp Production Turrets. Both turrets were mounted in the middle of the tank. The Porsche turret was originally developed for the VK4502(P) tank, which was based on the VK4501(P) chassis. This project was rejected, but the design of the turret was accepted and adapted for Henschel's Tiger II (because the Henschel turret wasn't ready yet). Porsche's turret mounted a one-piece 88mm gun, while Henschel's turret mounted a two-piece 88mm gun (from May 1944). The Tiger II with Porsche turret carried 80 rounds of ammunition, while the production version with the Henschel turret carried 86 rounds. Seventy-five percent of the ammunition was stored along the hull sides, and the remaining 25% was stored in the rear of the turret. Also, a total of 5,850 7.92mm rounds were carried for three MG 34/MG 42 machine guns for local and air defence.


The Porsche turret had a curved mantlet and the commander's cupola was offset to the left. The curved mantlet created a shot trap below the mantlet and, in December 1943, Henschel was ordered to design a new turret to be used as a standard for future models. Krupp designed the turret, which featured a flush cupola, instead of a bulged one, and a saukopf mantlet. The Henschel turret was also known as Krupp's (production) turret, or Serien Turm (serial turret). King Tiger with the Porsche turret weighed 68,500 kg, while with the Henschel turret weighed 69,800 kg. Krupp produced both turrets. The turret could be traversed 360 degrees in 19 to 77 seconds, depending on engine RPM; since the engine powered the hydraulic turret drive (at 2,000rpm - 19 seconds). It could be also traversed by hand, using the hand wheel operated by the gunner."

Wie of wat moeten we nou geloven?

Groeten vanuit een warm Tampa Bay, US (vakantie rules!)
 
Gezien het feit dat de KT een extra ring nodig had om de Porsche toren passend te maken, ben ik niet geneigd om te geloven dat de toren oorspronkelijk ook voor de Henschel KT ontworpen was.
 
haha, het lijkt wel geschiedenis. Iedereen heeft een andere mening 😀 😀
Waar heb jij die info trouwens vandaan Jamie? Klinkt ook weer aannemelijk.

Goeie vakantie nog trouwens
 
Laat maar, ik heb het al geraden 😉 Achtungpanzer.com. Wel jammer dat daar dan geen bron bij staat. Zou wel boeiend zijn als dat weer een andere dan Spielberger is.
Any way, ik heb ook maar een postje met wat vragen toegevoegd aan de ML topic. Nu mogen ze eens bewijzen leveren 😉 Geroepen is er al genoeg.

We want hard evidence! LOL 😈

Grtz Niels
 
Tja, ik heb verschillende boeken waar woorden van gelijke strekking in staan. Ik denk dat het moeilijk is om definitief bewijs voor dit soort zaken boven tafel te krijgen. Spielberger heeft het vast ergens vandaan, Jentz zal het ook weer ergens vandaan hebben, enz enz enz...
Iets dat ik ondertussen heb geleerd in deze hobby is dat ook de experts niet altijd gelijk hebben. Een Steve Zalogo spreekt zichzelf ook wel eens tegen en dat geeft helemaal niet, het geeft alleen maar aan dat we allemaal blijven leren.
 
om alles af te sluiten de reactie die ik op mijn vragen op ML kreeg. persoonlijk ben ik overtuigd maar het is natuurlijk aan ieder afzonderlijk om een mening te vormen.

Grtz Niels, die van deze topic weer het een en ander geleerd heeft
Achtungpanzer is good for pictures, nothing more. A lot of info there is downright incorrect and all that is said there about the Tiger-B, is incorrect. Henschel nor Porsche had any hand in the design of the turrets. Krupp designed turrets. Wegman built turrets. Henschel only mounted the turrets on THEIR chassis.

The turrets, all turrets, were designed regardless of the chassis. They share only 1 thing, the turret-ring diameter. If you look at the whole VK-4501 competition between Henschel and Porsche, both proposals had basically the same turret, the roofs differed.

Fact is, chassis and turret are designed independent of each other, with only the turret ring being the part which has to fit.

The notion that the early turret and Henschel hull didn't fit is partially correct. The early turret sits high, it doesn't sit flush with the hull top.

Also, the early turrets were fitted with both monobloc and duobloc guns. The later turrets only had duobloc guns. But that again, has nothing to do with the turret. The gun and it's barrel is designed by another company.

Fact is, during the initial stages of development, turret-design for the VK-4502(P) and VK-4502(H) ran parallel, only differing that the Porsche proposal would be electricly driven, while the Henschel proposal used hydraulic drive. The turrets themselves were identical, for practical reasons. So, that fact alone blows "Porsche" turret out of the water, since that exact same turret was originally already being designed for the Henschel proposal as well.

On 19 August 1942 WaPruef 6 and Krupp discussed the turret design and found several reasons to redesign it, the main and most significant reason being that it was too labourous to construct.

It was decided to redesign the turret to eliminate the trouble of interlocking the turretfront, hence the flat faced turret design. If you take a look at the front of an early Tiger-B turret, you see a number of complex interlocks. A lot more complex than how the later turret's front face is fitted.

The rear of the turret was simplified. As is clear, the rear of the early turret can be removed almost completly when the gun has to be removed. The new design eliminated this, by allowing the gun to be removed completely through a single hatch.

A simpler gunmantlet was requiered and designed.

For those not in the know, the Porsche VK4502 contracts had been cancelled in early November 1942. The new turrets were incorporated on drawings at Henschel dated 3 June 1944.

Interestingly, the design of the early turret, was accepted on 21 October 1942, meaning that was shortly before the whole VK-4502(P) was cancelled.

Porsche however was allowed to complete 3 chassis with electric drive turrets at Nibelungenwerke, but these turrets were later ordered to be converted to hydraulic drive and be used on Henschel chassis.
 
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